This Assembly Supports the State Casino Referendum

This Assembly Supports the State Casino Referendum

I want to welcome you to this Campbell Institute debate I’m grant reader the Institute’s director and I want to give a special welcome to those of you who are here from the community beyond the University as well as the folks that are watching on our livestream and in particular the Maxwell alumni network now the question before you tonight is how we should vote on the state casino referendum this will be a ballot proposition in the elections that are being held on November 5th it is proposition number one and it amends the Constitution to allow the legislature to authorize up to seven casinos in New York State this is a complicated issue involving different trade-offs and as citizens we are all or at least as many of us who will go to the polls that day going to have to render a decision on this so this debate is not simply an academic exercise for all of us and we’re fortunate to have a great set of folks to debate this issue they’ve donated their time here tonight as well as their preparation time in order to do this and both Campbell and the Maxwell school are very grateful for that I won’t introduce them as you have their short BIOS and the brochure that you received on the way in I’ll simply list them and then you will actually meet them in just a minute in favor of the proposition we have in the order in which they will speak Khenpo Kowski and marked is against the proposition we have Steven Shafer and David Blankenhorn the proposition is that this assembly supports the casino referendum I also want to thank Kelly Coleman Bethany Wallander and Brooke Weinstein of the Campbell Institute who have worked very hard to put this event together and also the great students from the public affairs program and an undergraduate intern who are helping out with it tonight now let me very briefly go over the ground rules and the expectations particularly for what you can do to help make this debate a success because your participation is essential to it and the more specific ground rules are contained in the brochure that you received when you enter but first please silence your smartphones if you haven’t already done that as I said we have four panelists who are going to debate the proposition and the speakers will alternate between each side and they’ll each have about seven minutes to speak and we begin with the affirmative then they’ll have an opportunity working as teams to further rebut and question what the other side has said after that we will open it up to you you’ll be able to pose questions or make points directed to one or the other teens or more generally and once you are recognized and I will call on you and I’ll try to call on two people at a time if I can we have microphones that will be passed to you and we ask for two things first that you wait for the microphone before you start speaking as we want to have your comments be part of the archive program and we’re going to make that program available by the Maxwell school and the Campbell Institute and also through WR vo public media and second that your brief and to the point and that you give the microphone back to the usher after you’ve stated your question or major point I’m sure that they’re going to be quite a few of you that are going to want to speak or ask questions and we have limited time for this then each team will have a very brief chance to make a closing argument and after that you’re going to render your decision by walking out one of these two sets of doors and I’ll say more about that at the end of the debate for now just note that the affirmative door will be here right yay and the negative door will be to your left neck also a heads up that in order to be counted at the end you must stay until the completion of the debate that seems only fair and the reception that follows outside I’ll have a chance to meet the debaters and to continue the conversation now just two last things I want to say first if some of you are no doubt aware not only is the substance of this referendum controversial the very language that has been used in the ballot proposition itself has also attracted controversy our main purpose in this debate however is to discuss the merits of the essential proposal whether it could have or should have been better described by the Board of Elections second some of you are here I hope because you’re wrestling with this question you’re trying to figure out how to vote and that’s fantastic others may be pretty sure what they think and they’re here to read on Assad or for other reasons that’s fine too we just asked for mutual respect and civility throughout the event so I think that about covers it please welcome the debaters now [Applause] Florida’s yours means for seven minutes thanks so much for the invite we gotta go up there I don’t get that part of the ground rules okay good evening everybody I work for an organization that represents represents about 2,500 businesses across New York State of which about a handful our casino and gaming interests so I don’t represent a gaming industry group I represent business that are interested in economic development and investment job growth in New York State which brings us to this this issue and to this debate today I really have three major themes I wanted to share with you the the investment in casinos will bring economic benefits to the state particularly upstate in part of that isn’t isn’t is based on the capture of current gaming expenditures from New Yorkers that goes elsewhere second this is an incremental increase in gaming gaming is here it’s been here for some time it’s an industry New York States as industry nationwide and thirdly this is an issue that has already been shown to have broad legislative and broad public support and I’m going in the reverse order this is being made out as an extraordinary issue when it’s really not and part I fear that because of the the nature some of the arguments on both sides of being elevated a bit but it may be an extraordinary process given that because of an anachronistic provision of the state constitution adopt in 1821 and amended three times since then this is a constitutional issue rather than a statutory issue it’s really not what we typically think of when we think about constitutional issues setting forth Koko equal branches of government setting forth Bills of Rights etc but state constitutions tend to be overly detailed and overly in inclusive if this was a statutory issue which I would argue that it properly is this debate would already be over casino gaming has already been approved with large bipartisan majorities in both houses that state legislature the amendment a constitutional amendment passed the Senate fifty five to eight the assembly one hundred and ten to thirty this bill also has broad public support particularly when it’s put in the context when what is being presented as having economic benefits and revenue benefits to the state the the percentage of surveyed persons who supported it goes up in the context Gaming is already one hundred and forty two billion dollar industry in the u.s. three or thousand job this is a gaming as already present in york state we have nine VLT centers five full tribal casinos three bingo tribal bingo halls almost thirty thousand of electronic gaming machines twelve horse tracks this proposal isn’t bringing gambling to new york state it’s an incremental increase in our dog you as a modest incremental increase in that and the biggest change is table games not the electronic gaming which seems to be one of the focuses of some of the opposition I mentioned broad public support recent PNM Ciena polling shows at every demographic cohort and their Cross staff supports expansion of casino because you know gaming Republicans and Democrat upstate and downstate male-female all races all ages and again the stronger the more this is put in context the strong of the support is shown when people are asked generic question do you support casino gaming it was 46:46 in that bowling when it was put into the context of this will have economic impacts etc support was fifty five forty two st. Paul said seventy five percent of respondents agreed that this will bring jobs to New York State sixty five sixty three percent believe that will produce increased state intact state and local tax revenues I think those are pretty things are very accurate there’s an estimate it’s somewhere between a 1 billion and up to three billion dollars is being spent by New Yorkers and casinos outside in York State in part the economic impacts of this will be by diverting some of that revenue back into New York State but there will be four in the short term for new casinos built in upstate most likely Catskills Capital Region’s southern tier depending on how they’re developed whether it’s it’s it’s a greenfield development or expansion of existing facilities yes reasonable estimate of 10,000 construction and permanent jobs maybe a billion six in construction based on what we’ve seen to date these are jobs averaging in the thirty thousand dollar range and importantly the places where these things is I don’t think gaming will be transformative it’s not the only thing that upstate economy needs but it’s something that will bring jobs to New York State and upstate New York and places that desperately need it now let’s give you a couple numbers in Sullivan County one of the places where location has been discussed from 1992 to the to 1990 to 2012 over a time where national job growth was about 22 percent Sullivan County negative job growth actually a loss of about 700 jobs Tioga County in the southern tier another location talked about as a logical location for an expanded casino from 1990 to 2012 again when national job growth up 22 percent Taylor County down 2500 jobs on a 2005 thousand dollar job base these are areas that need something they need investment they need jobs poverty is a significant public concern as well you need jobs in these areas that whose job growth has been dormant we’re part of a broad business coalition that’s supporting the constitutional amendment its business groups upstate and downstate we have labor groups supporting us including the some of the construction trades developers local governments teachers unions and other we think again the three key arguments on the positive side is there will be positive economic benefits second that this is an incremental increase in gaming gaming is here it’s been here for many years and third this has shown broad legislative and broad public support today thanks for your time thank you and thank you to the school and the Faculty of Syracuse University for putting on this debate tonight two key points about government sanction gambling costs are much greater than benefits half the revenue is from out-of-control gamblers these intertwine the hidden socio-economic costs of a new casino outweigh its benefits by at least three to one just the quantifiable costs for the judiciary for gambling related crimes or non prosecuted thefts like under paid personal loans things like this drain from New York State Society over three billion dollars a year in carrying costs this toll excludes suicide divorce psychological misery as no one can give a dollar value to these and it also excludes the proceeds of indictable crimes nearly all these costs flow from addicted gamblers or from more common but less severely affected problem gamblers these two types often lumped as problem gamblers are about four percent of adults the costs I mentioned however rope in not just these gamblers but everyone close to them about half the revenue to the average casino comes from problem gamblers who make up maybe 10% of past year casino users thus nearly all the carrying costs of gambling in the United States spring from the small fraction of gamblers who provide half a casinos revenue and thus half the revenue the casino will send to the government as tax much of the money lost by problem gamblers did not really belong to them but to others who trusted them that money when it goes to the state treasury as tax has come in large part from innocent non gamblers this is dirty money that governor government tries to launder by disbursing it as tax relief or aid to education you’ll also hear sometimes gambling is that it’s a tax on stupidity even those who think this characterization of problem gamblers is apt and I don’t I think they have an illness no it doesn’t fit their children their parents their spouses their employers their employees their in-laws their clients their siblings you name it problem gambling is epidemic in America epidemics must be controlled by preventing new cases making current ones recover and sustaining recovery for a dire condition like problem gambling the goal should be eradication the seven casino amendment would do the reverse here’s why casino promoters note correctly that when new york state residents go out of state to casinos they dump here the socio-economic cost of their illnesses while letting their losses be turned into profits to businesses in other states and revenue to government in other states this recapture argument misses the point that the casino is meant to head off boundary crossers will by being closer to home create new casino users some of whom will become problem gamblers and gambling addicts by the way this is the only place in the lineup of pro casino arguments to acknowledge the socio-economic costs of gambling as concrete not just bleeding-heart pathos predicting accurately how many new problem gamblers will emerge from seven yet uncited casinos is hard one clue a national study by the New York State says New York State Institute on Research Institute on addiction story found that the prevalence of problem gambling is doubled within ten miles of one or more casinos in November 2012 before the administration decided to delay on downstate casinos I delivered to Albany unasked a worst case scenario 5 casinos near New York City could create eighty-two thousand new gambling addicts and a hundred and seventy two thousand new problem gamblers casino promoters say they don’t want to foster problem gamblers these people however are the stuff of life to casinos as to most types of gambling recall the central statistic half the revenue from problem gamblers a sound program to cut problem gambling to near zero would have casino revenue and also have the revenue to government can you picture of business really trying to rid itself of the 10% of customers who bring it 50% of its profits can you picture a government giving teeth to a regulatory agency which if effective would cut tax flow from that sector by 50% casino promoters declare they can reduce problem gambling but they don’t set objectives self exclusion is hard to enforce money doled out by the state for treatment and prevention is not well used when as is in the case in New York only 1% of problem gamblers are in state-funded recovery programs winding up I return to the hidden socio-economic costs that make raising revenue by tax on casinos for society they make the cost to all of us for raising a dollar of revenue to government by taxing a new casino much higher than that of raising a dollar by upping a conventional tax rate at a thirty one percent tax on casinos it would cost New York residents collectively at least a dollar fifty to send a dollar of casino tax to Albany that 50% surcharge is a sort of tax concealed for most people and therefore tolerated and don’t forget half that money is coming from problem gamblers who stripped it from somebody else thank you for your attention good evening me good evening everyone my name is Mark baes I have several hats on tonight I’m the CEO of the partnership for economic development in Sullivan County and economic development organization I represent the citizens for New York State Gaming and I do have a private economic development firm so I’ve been doing economic development for some twenty seven years now and I’m here to talk to you about Sullivan County it was mentioned tonight by the first speaker and I’ll give you a historical historical perspective of our County solvent County was a tourism basic economy for many many years so names like the Concord the rally the Brickman Grossinger’s large hotels massive resorts 1,500 employees 3,000 employees they had dining rooms that served 1,500 people at one time these were the industries that we thrived on in Sullivan County we’re in a unique position Sullivan County does not have the infrastructure that you have here in Syracuse as far as a university that you may have in the southern tier as far as links NASA and some of the other my sake and some of the other employers there or that you have in the Capital Region that has all the government offices that are there Saratoga County and now Global Foundries which is doing tremendous good for that region this is what we are and you’ve heard tonight that we haven’t had job growth in about 30 years there’s been a lack of alternative industry opportunities on mass we work hard we’ve introduced new industry alternatives to solving County and we have some distribution and some light manufacturing and we have some food processing our number-one employers in healthcare 1,500 employees you’ll hear tonight and you’ve heard tonight about problem gambling and a breakdown of our societal values and how this is just a short-term fix and not approving prudent economic policy well I’m here to tell you that gambling already exists I’m virtually every street corner you go into a convenience store what do you see scratch-off games galore you can get online and play video poker on your smartphone you can do that right now so they thought that these seven casinos are for initially will will exacerbate that problem in such a way that it’s going to cause Armageddon to our society is just simply not true Sullivan County features a couple of things high taxes infiltration of social deterioration gangs drugs a whole host of health related disorders high infant mortality rates adult onset diabetes diabetes drug and alcohol addictions and other health-related factors linked directly back to the lack of job opportunities so it is not is it not socially sound to provide an area that exhibits extraordinary underemployment the opportunity for its citizens to earn an honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work would it be not benefit of us all if to provide opportunities for upward mobility to the citizens citizenry of proposed project areas our primary project will introduce a thousand jobs in Phase one to Sullivan County the project will introduce destination Resort Casino banquet Events Center restaurants parking facilities a Gulf phase and entertainment village phase and the overall impact in Sullivan County alone from one project will be 395 million dollars annually so what is 1,000 jobs a mean to solvent County well we have about 30,000 people working in Sullivan County an employment rate of about seven point nine percent so a thousand jobs is gonna completely change our landscape overnight and the total Bildad and in total job numbers for that this one project in Sullivan County is gonna be twenty six hundred people so you can imagine and we have had a long discussions about whether we’re gonna get one or two we think we’re in the front-running of getting two of them to bring back this wonderful industry this tourism industry that we so desire in Sullivan County I stand before you tonight the son of an immigrant family who came here in 1958 and worked at those hotel casinos and they may not have had the best jobs in the world they wash dishes my parents worked in the kitchen my mom was a waitress for a time and they brought in they raised six kids in this community and it’s amazing that that industry and the jobs that they have that are considered so menial in some respects I’m sitting here talking in front of you in this wonderful University in this wonderful setting I think that speak loudly to what this project can do for us in Sullivan County not only here but in the state of New York and I would say that in terms of fiscal stewardship in terms of thriftiness in terms of watching our pocketbooks I think the state has it right I think that the fact that we can take those dollars that are going to New Jersey Pennsylvania Connecticut and other surrounding states and other states across the country and keep them here in New York is the least we can do to help our schools to help lower our tax base and to help invigorate our economy thank you thank you well both of my friends here have said that these casinos are good for the economy but they haven’t cited a single study that shows that they’re good for the economy they haven’t said it’s what savings had a single piece of research and the reason is there is no such research there’s no such research that the the independent economists have looked at this over the years have concluded that casinos do not contribute to economic growth and in many cases actually slowed down economic growth the most important book on this subject is the book I’m holding in my hand is called gambling and America cost and benefits by Professor Earl Grinnell’s of very prominent economists and he studies many he serves looks up many studies and summarizes him and does his own a more recent study why casinos matter I was associated with it along with 31 other scholars and we reviewed all the economic evidence the main reason casinos don’t contribute to economic growth is they don’t produce anything if you bring a if you bring a tire shop into your community that makes tires if you may bring a doughnut shop into your wonderful town it’s gonna make doughnuts the only thing that happens in a casinos people lose their money it’s the only thing that gets made nothing the value gets made casinos do not help the economy now you’ve heard some statistics a billion dollars $30,000 jobs a thousand jobs in one County alone 395 million dollars annually I’m suggesting that those numbers are kind of like political campaign promises Oh give us what we want and then all these wonderful things will happen the Sun will shine brighter everything will be rosy show me the studies fellows show me the studies just show me an independent study that doesn’t come from the gambling industry itself that says any of this and I’d be valued I’d like to see it as a scholar I’d love to see real evidence on this the real evidence is guys like this who do real studies for example you say you say that all the things will happen but you don’t talk about what economists call substitution effects if a casino comes in and gives a cheaper phase to people who go gamble in the casino that means that that has downward harms other local businesses in the communities so it’s all the substitution effect and I would be willing to bet you $100 of free slot play that none of these numbers that you’ve cited tonight take into account the cond the whole concept of substitution effect if I’m wrong please tell us what these studies are to talk about a billion and thirty thousand and the governor said this in his speech a couple of he said a billion dollars of a billion dollars will happen you know where that the billion dollar number came from it came from the casino Lobby we’re supposed to believe that the people who want the economic privilege are gonna be independent tell us some made-up number about the no trust but verify when you hear something like this ask the person where they got this information because the actual people who do analysis will tell you the casinos don’t make anything casinos just take people’s money seventy percent of a floorspace in casino you know one of these things slot machines that’s what they are slot machines slot machines slot machines eighty percent of the revenue comes from slot machines a slot machine is just a machine that you put your money in it it doesn’t come back out it’s been programmed to take your money that’s what happens in a casino so this thing about oh it grows the economy the flowers bloom no no no one thing happens in a casino people go in there put their money machines and lose it what happens to it then if the government if Governor Cuomo and the politicians get their way there will be a tax on that activity and some of it will go to the state that really will happen is this a good way to raise our money in New York taking advantage of vulnerable people fifty percent of whom or have problem gamblers messing up their lives and other people’s lives by excessive gambling we want to tax them you know play slot machines disproportionately lower wage workers retirees women and minorities so these are the people who we’re gonna really stick it to to get money for the state I’m ashamed of the whole idea where’s the timer am i at a time how am i doing I’m good I’m just getting warmed up here Gaming is here to stay both of my friends said this of all the arguments they make I find this the most personally upsetting tell me a problem in New York that we need more of on the grounds that it’s already here some people smoke a lot of cigarettes do we need more heavy cigarette smokers in New York on the grounds that some people already do it we have a lot of problem gamblers in New York who mess up their lives and mess up other people’s life do we need more of them on the ground so we already have some of them explain this logic to me tell me one negative thing that the government does today that they need to expand on the grounds that what oh we already have it there’s an ethical question involved here it’s do we want to put the government in the business of hurting some people so that the government can get some money that’s really what this comes down to you want to set up these entities bring in thousands and thousands of more of these slot machines spread them in around some casinos so that vulnerable people a lot of vulnerable people and other people are gonna go in there lose their money so that the government can get a tax it’s different it’s not gonna help the economy and then a single study shows that it helps the economy it helps government get money that’s the question do you think this is a good way to raise our revenue to pay for our services in the state of New York [Music] so now the permanent team will have ten minutes for rebuttal and that’ll be followed by a ten minute period for the negative so the floor is yours gentlemen so you’ve heard it Armageddon the sky is falling the world is falling apart and I saw and you see people that have gone to Mohegan Sun into some of the other facilities and you know when you go there I don’t see the world falling apart there’s no doom and gloom from what I can tell he wanted a study so I have a study here from the Cambridge Health Alliance division of on addiction Harvard Medical School teaching affiliate and in this study the findings are pretty interesting they did a study and this was based on the expansion of casinos in in New England a benchmark study for monitoring exposure to new gaming and here’s what we find of those surveyed 90% of those surveyed studied played the lottery less than half purported played the local lottery less than half reported gambling in the last 12 months 90% played the local lottery weekly of those who gambled in a casino most averaged between 1 and 100 dollars and reported average losses of $50 so it is evident that they had a cap that they would not exceed that’s most of us so yet four percent of the people they may have a gambling problem and that’s a bad thing and we should certainly pay attention to that and we had locally at least dedicated resources to do that the other day I had a debate and part of the panel was a person from gambling anonymous and he was is an intelligent individual and he said we’re not pro but we’re not against casino gaming what he said is we want to make sure that everyone’s aware of this problem and so we want to make sure that you’re gonna dedicate resources to help us with this issue and bring it more to light than it is today fair enough I agree with that using the alcohol use disorder and associated bilities interview schedule an American Psychiatric Association criteria metric pertaining to the statistical model of mental disorders of those surveyed point two percent triggered one metric to be considered a problem gambler the all data schedule requires five specific criteria to be an identifier of problem gambling so only one metric 0.2% nationwide it was 0.4% 92% gambled in their lifetime 57% gambled during the last year point four percent qualified for one criteria point two percent for one criteria as a problem gambler in the last year in economic development when we look at a project that we want to bring into a certain area we use statistical modeling we use one that’s called the rims model and in layman’s terms what we do is we take an input and output analysis to determine the impact of that project in the area the problem with the studies that have been done is they focus on the gambling and they focus on the tax collected they don’t focus on the pipefitter that work there and the money he earns or she earns they don’t focus on the plumber the electrician and those ancillary services that are provided by outside groups outside vendors that happened to work on this massive project and so those economic impacts are all figured into the numbers that are given to you by the state they’re not just pulling a number out of the sky and say what we think it’s a billion dollars and they don’t take the gaming associations number do you think politically that the governor his administration would just take an arbitrary number out of the sky and say well here’s the number of course not there’s a model there’s a statistical way of doing it they do cost-benefit analysis to see if those projects were working specific areas so there is a systematic approach to where they can designate that data and I can tell you on every project that we look to submit to the state for approvals it’s a very conservative formula we use it for all our models and so that I think is the way you should understand how these numbers have come about and I’ll end it my portion is saying this the ancillary benefits the ancillary the entertainment venue their golfing venue the restaurants the shows the other things other activities most of the people that we know go to casinos to enjoy some of these other activities and the casino portion while critical is just part of a menu of a bunch of activities that people like to partake in when they go on vacation and he visit other areas to simply say that all people do is go to a casino hide themselves in a boiler room and send an Islamic a long all the time it’s just simply not true and energy you’re getting presented aversion an opinion about how this actually takes place and in reality we all know that that’s simply not true thank you mark did a great job on the rebuttal I just a couple points I’d like to add I think it’s a strange comment to say someone who doesn’t make anything isn’t part of the economy in a national world economy that’s now about 40% intangible goods where 50 years ago is almost 100 percent tangible goods most of a large percentage of what we buy are electrons we buy entertainment we buy information and that’s where the gambling experience goes I know some of the opponents to when we do in time wise excuse know five minutes beautiful the the idea that all gambling is predatory gambling and gambling can never be entertainment I think that’s that’s it’s absolutely wrong that I know I live in Saratoga Springs New York been there 15 years I can you you want studies or studies but you want evidence you have a gaming venue there 600 jobs 18 million dollar payroll which by my math is about thirty thousand job thousand dollars jobs on average they’re doing an expansion for hotel gaming is very compatible with a with a strong economy if you look back historically gaming was the seed around which the economy in Nevada grow grew then over the last 20 years one of the fastest growing state economy and state populations in America there is economic development related to gaming I’m the first one to say this is not the end-all be-all it’s a thing not the thing in places though where the resort gaming operations are being considered it’s more than gaming it’s hotels it’s its food its entertainment these are real jobs real paychecks that will benefit real families I think there’s ample evidence to show that gaming in Kannamma girls are wholly compatible thank you ten minute rebuttal period by the negative I want to talk a little bit about the recapture strategy again if he goes back to the idea that people from New York leaving the state to go and gamble somewhere else leaving all the costs behind that are in effect charged to society and then in the other state dropping their wad for the state to make a revenue or the business is to make a profit and I guess theoretically I can understand the recapture argument if it were possible to do it with some kind of very sensitive filter that grabbed only the boundary crossers and never caused a new gambling addict or a new problem gambler to be created in New York State by one of those Maginot Line casinos that’s going to be set up to recapture people the the more people you stop on the way because it’s closer than the outside state the more people are going to become problem gamblers and addicts to me this is a story of a state that is beleaguered like all states like Canada all the private Canadian provinces everywhere you look in the United States gambling is endemic and epidemic that problem gambling is the same way but that is not a reason to set about doing something on this which is a devastating national problem of about this about half the size of illegal drug abuse in billions of dollars per year it is a it’s a huge huge economic problem and that’s just the money we’re not talking about the ruined lives so we have to do something about turning a tide and a way to to begin to recover for our society is not to add some or not not to do more of it so I I really think that we have to focus on addiction now can brought up some figures that I find I’d like to see them afterwards in which he says am i right can that that the prevalence of problem gambling is 0.2 percent I’m sorry mark in the study you have a New England expansion model and they surveyed New England residents but dead that just doesn’t square with the basic prevalence statistic that’s been out since 1998 and it comes from the same the same group of researchers that mark quoted from the Cambridge Center on addictions and it says prevalence of gambling addiction in the United States at that time in adults was about 1.1 4% and prevalence of problem gambling about 2.8 percent later studies by the same group suggested that the addiction prevalence could be as high as 1.4 percent so whether people make a big point only 1% of gamblers are in real trouble but that 1% is millions of people when you have a population of say 200 million adults so I’m not going to talk about more about addiction statistics but I really want to say that that it is the creating of addicts that worries me greatly and for every job and we this state needs good jobs and there are good jobs to be had in Sullivan County I wish we could have an industry that had everything else the Golf Course is the water parks all these other things without feeling it needed to be a destination Gaming resort as its and we just we need to understand that if we create a thousand jobs or two thousand or ten thousand or 30,000 by proliferating enough casinos we are also going to be creating probably that many addicts even plus many more addicts and problem gamblers in the state of Pennsylvania it was a study showed that eight thousand jobs have been created by recent spate of casinos in the state of Pennsylvania ten thousand people have applied for self exclusion from the Pennsylvania casinos that’s only a portion of the most affected gamblers but so you have more people self excluding than you have jobs supposedly created by the casino industry in Pennsylvania that’s a sorry state thank you growth and it’s wonderful for the economy they haven’t cited a single study because there is no study there’s no study I’m sorry there’s no study it says casino gambling helps the economy anytime any activity happens if you build a building that somebody’s gonna have a job to get the building build the buildings but what economists look at what it what scholars look at is does the activity contribute to economic growth the answer is casinos don’t now in a political season when people want to say things they can all a billion a trillion I’m sorry I want you guys show me a study just well I will take just one study that shows that casinos contribute to economic growth there isn’t one one of my friends said though they don’t just take these numbers out of the sky I’m sorry that’s exactly where it came from the 1 billion number that Governor Cuomo said it’s a made-up number he stood there and said this will contribute a billion dollars to the economy of New York do you know where that number came from it came from the New York Gaming committee came from the casinos that wanted the privilege so the guy the guy that heads up the Association said to a reporter in Albany said oh we think this will be a billion dollars for the economy of New York and we can just get these casinos for my members and the governor said that in the speech that’s where the number came from it literally got pulled out of the air there’s no base there was no cost but just a guy just said it there’s no studies to show it helps the economy people want to do this the politicians want to do this for one reason only to get the tax money okay that’s why they want to do it now Stephen has said that third but the studies vary between he said about half it between a minimum of 35 to 55 percent of the money that gets spinning casinos on gambling comes from people that are really in trouble they’re a small game numerically but they provide a large fraction of the money that goes to these casinos and having a casino near you increases the likelihood that you or your child or your neighbor or somebody you know is going to be involved in this and get drawn up into this problem so again if it’s not true fellas that 35 to 55 percent of the money comes from people that have serious problems show me the DEF evidence tell me what you have have a factual nature that is different from this thirty five to fifty five percent comes from problem gamblers putting a casino in a community increases the number of problem gamblers in that community according to all the studies if you have evidence of another nature other than anecdotal please share it with us [Music] well last point is they said oh it’s golf and shows and vacations and skiing the Constitution doesn’t prohibit any of those things right now so the people that do economic development are happy that were they’re free to make golf courses and convention centres and wonderful places for tourists to go they’re free to do all of that right now and God bless them I hope they do it now lots of people get good jobs doing it there’s only one thing that our bill of rights in our Constitution prohibits them from doing they cannot allow commercial entities to come in and set up rigged the games of chances that take advantage of people they can’t do that convention centers skiing golfing wonderful restaurants it’s all wonderful do it just don’t do this one thing that puts the state in the business of hurting people and hurting communities thank you and thanks for the four of you for your comments and your rebuttal now we’re going to move to the audience question and answer period so again I imagine that there have been things that you have heard that have stimulated some thoughts or questions in your minds and this is the time for you to raise your hand and share them gentlemen there go ahead whether you tight very fine debate and my question is directed towards mr. wokulski but all right and so so I’d like to make it or make a comment and answer questions so the comment is you start out by saying that there’s broad that gambling is here already and that both Democrats and Republicans are generally supportive of gambling it seems to me that that’s a bandwagon fallacy in the sense that just because everybody says it’s right does not necessarily make something right so I just like to put that forward and the question I’d like to ask is as far as up what has not been adequately answered is this notion that true you know restaurants provide the service banquet facilities provide service but when there’s a factory cars are produced when an industry comes in something is given back to society but how do you answer this idea that essentially when you look at what gambling does it produces nothing it produces nothing except an avenue for people to come and spend their money and lose it which by the way they don’t have so I mean I appreciate your concern for something that will drum up economy but do you really believe in your heart that this will actually contribute towards creating bounty and plenty and and how do you address the situation that it does not really give anything back to society I’m not sure I remember the first part of the question but the you know I’ve read a bit on the issue of problem gambling since I started working on this issue and there are I don’t know that there’s there’s data there’s surveys there’s estimates but there are I think fairly I’ve seen widely fairly widely divergent estimates of what problem gambling is and the only argument I’ve really heard in incontinent in response to this on the other side is it’s gonna guaranteed increased significant increase in in problem gambling that’s the only downside a year these are this is a legal change that allows private entities to invest private dollars in construction hiring people these are activities that by you know Saratoga gaming six on their jobs that’s a real number it’s six hundred additional jobs it’s six hundred paychecks has multiplier effects in the economy that it that is an economic and economic benefit and I guess in general I would say I haven’t looked for studies on the economic benefit studies on the economic benefit of gaming because there’s data this data shows you you know what the what the jobs are what the wages are remind what the other part of his question was there’s a multiple part that’s the basic question no the last thing I was gonna get at is it it does give you it does give people something I mean I’m a I will say a casual gamer yeah a gambler I go to the we have a you know a flat track very popular it’s a source of entertainment instead of the money I would spend and it’s awful easy to for a family of four to spend a couple hundred dollars on a dinner night out that you spend at Saratoga racetrack instead it is a source of entertainment that is an intangible benefit that I’m willing to pay my money for and people on the other end of that transaction get jobs from it get a paychecks from it there’s activity economic activity goes along with it so this idea I think there’s notion that without a tangible good unless someone’s making tires in your neighborhood economic activity doesn’t exist it’s just it’s just not consistent with the way the economy works today and I would I would I would say that a website doesn’t really create anything it’s a website Facebook is making a ton of money right now in the billions they really don’t create anything they create an opportunity for you to communicate with others and some would say sir but but it still but it still doesn’t create a product or a tangible good now another source of addiction another force of addiction and so the casinos they have to be maintained right the casinos have to be maintained now we keep thinking about this casino and I’m talking about a resort a Mohegan Sun this is to six hundred million dollar project there’s no casino that I know that just the casino portion cost six hundred million dollars it’s insane to think that and so the maintenance facility the HVAC people the plumbers the last part I hired to work in my house charge me one hundred and ten dollars an hour are you kidding me that’s a good money in Sullivan County so they are making something they are providing a service there’s a whole host of legal services and other professional services they’re gonna take advantage of this situation as well and so to say that they’re not going to do anything but take people’s money and throw it away that’s just simply not true question now there’s a gentleman everything has hand up and then economic development you got to be kidding Las Vegas beautiful Sullivan County my favorite town there Liberty trial at that place I went down there and he had them one of the old places were the release two should have comedy and things years ago those hairs yes is now a place but that grows from some places like that is a place where you never condominium or something I’m a kind of years ago to look at it wish I had gotten in a long time ago build on the premise of this casino coming back then every place they have any casino place is a beautiful own item that strip going down through an item because all every place where you got it it’s just plain beautiful and not only that but it makes people just feel good knowing the airplane goes you could do it like you do when people go to the bars drinking you only allow them so much they say you’ve had enough maybe they could have it so that you could have you’d have to be able to prove that you can only go just you can afford to go just so far with your gambling like for example I might go in with a hundred dollars at Turning Stone if I win only I’m only gonna play just that hundred dollars even though there seems to be a question there and let me it’s not because we need to move on to get other questions there’s a question here about limiting if I heard you limiting the ability of a casino to limit the gambler from losing past a certain amount I think there’s a question there that the four of you can engage briefly sure the concept of one one way to prevent problem gambling is put up placards giving the 1-800 Hope NY number and if you see somebody who looks has got a gun to his head in the casino you advise well I’m being a little facetious but in fact the casinos say that they cannot identify problem gamblers because the person who is spending a lot of money tonight might have just come into a big inheritance it might be somebody that they has never been in their casino before if it’s in a bitch away they still say well maybe you know maybe until he died and he’s got some more money they will not confront people who look like problem gamblers based on the patterns now a recent study that actually came out from a member of the same group at Cambridge Center on addictions show that following player cards at a casino can actually identify who’s in trouble but the casinos are darn well not going to make the data available so it is virtually impossible to get their cooperation in limiting play so I’ll go ahead and I’ll answer your question that exists today already in Missouri we have a band a cap of $200 for the slot machines and when you reach 2 1 and you actually have a card when you go in and they then they understand what you’re you’re you’re spending when you reach that cap of $200 they pull you aside and they and they maximize it on that cap so that there’s ways to do that and that’s something that we can address you know as we decide where they’re gonna go and there’s other issues in terms of resources to address gaming problems [Music] well can we get them next we get the next question here the question of problem gamblers or not I’d like to go back to the economic development question and address either mr. BIOS or mr. Bukowski in terms of how this is anything other than a zero-sum game if you have a certain number of people who are going to gamble and you milk build a casino one player now they’re they just seem to move from one to the other and then they ultimately become white elephants the way Grossinger’s and the concord have Grossinger’s in the concord became white elephants because at the time when the casino issue was large and and Las Vegas was building and rebuilding and rebuilding itself three or four times over we couldn’t do it because of that quirk in the law so the tourism industry in Sullivan County for decades said hey we really need these casinos that continue to get people here so it’s not a zero-sum game if let’s say that the billion dollars isn’t there and they didn’t do this let’s say it’s 200 million well if 200 million dollars is leaving your state and going to another state that’s a negative sum game and if we can keep that here we make we consider that to be a positive I understand that well but these resort destinations bring money from outside of our we’ll only our states as well from international people from vents that are held at some of these casinos so it’s not just one particular area that’s getting all this money and now I would say we want to keep my New York dollars don’t we I mean we really want to keep our New York dollars to help ourselves and the leakage in the hemorrhaging that’s going to these other states is something that we have to prevent and we have to stop I mean we really have to stop that it’s a real serious problem okay part of the challenge of any state economic development policy is how you get your share of the pie in the argument is you always want to have a slightly larger share of the pie than you had I mean we get to who really cares if there are jobs for people in Sullivan County all the people who live there people that depend on the government services provided by local revenues it is important so there may be some there’s always you know intra interrupts re-enter jurisdictional competition for economic growth I got a question down here I have two comments I’m I’m troubled even if you take the low end that thirty five percent of the profits come from problem gamblers I’m really troubled with a income economic development model that takes its profits from the most vulnerable and the other thing that was I forget who said it in Pennsylvania self excluders I’m assuming that’s people who somehow make themselves unable to go into the casino because of problem that there are more of those than jobs created and those are the people who are willing to actually be able to get to a place to self exclude those are the two things that I’m most troubled by are you directing that to either side or the group another very recent study and again I would just with all respect point out that it does matter to back up your statements with some analysis some actual facts that are based in independent research you guys have not done that there’s the into another one of an independent study coming out of the University of Mississippi where they have 30 casinos they estimated that the costs associated with the casinos with the problems related to excessive gambling crime indebtedness and so on the cost of the of the problems that were generated significantly outweighed numerically the dollars of problem dollars outweighed the dollars flowing to the state in revenue this is a state Mississippi that’s had casinos since 1990 f30 down there they’re very good at running casinos and it’s a net loss for society politicians like it because they only they’re just looking at the revenue flow to the government but the society suffers and again if somebody could explain to me what’s the other point of view I’d like to hear it because there isn’t another point of view you guys says multiplier effects that’s a joke among economists you know you you have to look at both sides of an equation you don’t just say oh the plumber got paid some money you have to look at the net effect on the economy that’s what’s called independent research and it all shows that this slows down economic growth absolutely absolutely untrue we absolutely look at the ancillary effects of providing opportunities for people to work there and we do look at the net effect and we do have formulas that we we use all the rims – it’s the standard formula we use across the country and we do input in output models that tell us these figures now let me ask you now let me ask so studies after studies after studies anybody can do a study based on whatever assumptions when you have an ideology going into doing that show alright so let me ask you this question should we should we close down Budweiser should we close down the Napa Valley because they we have a prevalent problem in alcohol and our in our in our country I think not when you go down to Tennessee and Jack Daniels as a factory there and does all of their liquor there it’s whiskey it’s hard whiskey it’s a dry town sand they’re making whiskey in that town because they realize that if they close that factory the negative impacts of that factory going down far outweigh any of the other socio-economic impacts that are associated with problem drinking in that area otherwise so you can cross that you go across the board and look at any other issue that has socio-economic dynamics in a negative way and the positives on on this issue whether it’s alcohol and other firms that make other sorts of things far outweigh in terms of giving people the job and opportunities for growth and upward mobility than this particular issue you mentioned it tonight 1% 2% of the people that gamble out problem Gamble’s gamblers identified by whatever metric you are you kidding me 2 percent compared to 98 percent of the people that are like Ken will walk in have a little form of entertainment and then go back to their families and do what they have to do who are we to determine the social behavior of other people who am I to say to you don’t spend your money in a gambling parlor don’t buy cigarettes don’t buy alcohol don’t buy that new car don’t do whatever it is that I don’t like that’s what we’re talking about here if you want to go and spend money in the casino and that entertains you for that period of time god bless you if you’re happy about it good for you we gonna only get a quick mr. shaver you wanted to say something quick we get a quick response there and then we’ll move on to the next set of questions so go ahead time I’m overwhelmed I think the first first point and we’re not saying to mark that all bad things should be banned in the United States we’re talking about the role of government in promoting right the exploitation of people to generate revenues to itself and along the way maybe it says oh we’ll create jobs and jobs are created no doubt about it there may be substitution there may weather net jobs are created I can’t tell you but new new lines are filled new people are hired but the the if if for every job an addict or our problem gambler is created that’s a major problem the other thing I don’t really like the libertarian argument that we who opposed gambling expansion are trying to tell other people how to rule their run their lives it’s this is about government sponsoring and activity government paving the way government quote unquote regulating the casino activities for essentially for its own benefit okay we have a question up here of this gentleman every about that yes I’m going to address this question to the the pros and I’m just wondering whether we’re too late to the table it’s my understanding that the gambling casinos in Pennsylvania have proliferated to the degree that they’re cutting each other’s throats if you go down to Atlantic City that that certainly could not be considered a garden area when you step out of the casino you’re back in a slump you know I mean that that hasn’t created some economic benefit or Drive furthermore I believe you you mentioned the Mohegan Sun and most of these have mortgaged themselves right off right out of the ability to pay for the their mortgages they made some very poor business modeling decisions right now they’re they’re actually in very decent shape now to say that the comparison Mississippi you’re comparing New York to Mississippi honestly is that what we’re doing here also in terms of in terms of the types of casinos that are in Mississippi they are warehouses with names on them and that sort of thing we’re talking about resorts here I’ll give you I’ll give you not a nation but not most but not most that most the EPT Concord resort it’s expected to create 2,600 full-time jobs are gonna spend six hundred million dollars on this resort so the gentleman mentioned that it’s going to be a beautiful place of course it is and when you step out of the concord resort you’re gonna look at the Catskill Mountains and it’s in its most bucolic setting that you can possibly look at what better place to be it by opinion if the casino portion of these projects is the catalyst to bring some of the other development that we need in our area that is a good thing and we think that those are other avenues and those are other projects that are going to come as a result sort is something that’s going to be a positive benefit in Sullivan County so I just disagree with that entirely and I think we know from a tourism perspective what it’s going to do for us and that’s why we support it people always been gambling and they always will be and along the Related line about a hundred years ago a group of moralistic people decided that we shouldn’t drink anymore and we should give it up and that was tried and it didn’t succeed so I people were always going to have other vices and unfortunately and trying to stop them not going to do it might as well get some free enterprise to construct businesses and because otherwise nobody’s going to be going to the Catskills for example except people like the Nature which is great but it’s just limited market the freedom to gamble is not the issue you’re free to gamble right now all day every day if you want to you can play poker bet on the Super Bowl you can do all the gambling you want and what you can’t do according to our Bill of Rights is come in and set up a commercial operation with rigged games of chance where the only thing that happens is that people lose their money that’s what you can’t do in New York State and we’ve never been able to do our Constitution outlaws it because it’s a cheating mechanism it cheats people and it gets people involved in a situation where they hurt themselves that’s the one thing that this commercial activity backed by this state in order to get revenue for the state so even if you don’t go even if you don’t go to the casinos the governor is asking you to become complicit in this he’s saying that in the name of citizenship we want you to set up fleecing operations so that we can take advantage of people so that we get money for the state but recreationally you can play geek and gamble all you want go home and do it tonight if you want but let’s not do this ugly thing in the name of our government opening comments I wrote this down as if I wasn’t an interesting thing to say it was that the goal should be the eradication of gambling the real gender the real practical change and is this constitutional amendment is that in these commercial operations that are already exist in New York State we’re gonna have cable gaming we have what are functionally slot machines in both the the private and the Native American gaming houses today they’re here we do it so this is not I mean this idea that state sponsored a state promoting its racinos into full that’s not right let me finish the types of games they’ll business they don’t they don’t be allowed under this or basically the card games in a casinos you have what are the effects slot machines today that’s the difference that’s the difference that to me is not government sponsoring government coercion government endorsing of fleecing the it’s a relatively modest change in what type of gaming is allowed new york state and i could speak to that because this our particular project the EPR project is going to take 1700 video lottery terminals for all intents and purposes slot machines and move them from a location to the concorde site and add the card games so in effect they’re not adding to that number of slot machines whatsoever and one other point I’d like to make does not government does not government licensed alcohol when you when you when government gives a licen license of bars license I’ll call it taxes alcohol would you say that government is a partner and selling alcohol which is considered a vice to many people well then we could look at every product in every situation and say well government taxes it and government endorses anything so we viewed this is the same thing every vice know what lets you bring up the example of alcohol here would be the proper analogy the governor gets up and gives a big speech and says New York is going to go into that alcohol business after all we’re already sort of in it so what we’re gonna do is send around cars to all the homes of alcoholics and give them free transportation to the bars not what we’re gonna give them free shit so then our right to their heart’s content that’s that we’re going to encourage people and we’re gonna say this isn’t good for the development of our society and after all it’ll be jobs for bartenders yeah so what we’re gonna do is drink drink drink to help send little Johnny to school and go into the afterall we already have it so let’s set up a drink for New York program that would be the analogy we don’t do that for alcohol we don’t do it for drugs either we don’t put New York into the we’re going to go into the drug drug creation business and give people free starter drugs we don’t do that we we’ve had to compromise with gambling we’ve said recreational and private gambling is ok gamble to your heart’s content as long as it’s private in recreational when it’s commercial done in the name of the state we that’s where we draw the line well it’s not that in the name the name of the state and it’s not being promoted but why this is a change why are we changing our Constitution why is the governor involved and interject something here because it’s a matter of wait for this is what legislators do they modify laws to reflect modern circumstances this was put in our Constitution a hundred and sixty years ago it’s what they do well tell me for a minute let me stop for a minute here now what is from your perspective what is wrong with that analogy it’s just government this is we have gaming there’s one thing basically we do not allow in your state that’s table games and not Indian casinos and this change in the Constitution will allow that and from and from my perspective it is not I mean yeah this is not this is not public money being spent there that’s correct this is not government building casino is correct this is not government advertising casinos and by the way and by the way this this legal fight over the over the the language on the ballot is taken the the issues in that way which is taken directly out of the state statement of legislative intent adopted in the bill that passed overwhelmingly in both houses of legislature and is modeled on past Battenberg rivers look at pass ballot referendums for things like behind a they say this is the purpose of this referendum to create jobs correct did you know also that casino gambling reduces heart disease and brings on world peace because that would be another thing you could add into that look are there heart and say no heart is matter and we’re gonna move on to see if there is another quest please this was party together I got this is the question – on the 2005 November ballot and New York State question – rebuilding the new New York state transportation of bond ad of 2005 in proposition to promote and ensure the preservation renewal improvement of the state’s roads and bridges and other vital transportation systems shall we borrow 2.9 billion dollars that is the way ballot referendums are presented to the people they explain what the purpose of the Constitution actually I actually want to keep kind of take a little tangent off of this little conversation with an example that the the defending side views which was smoking so um so one one piece was is that if we want to take the argument that it doesn’t create any good so we’ll look at an amusement park right a music parks create an experience and that creates value within itself so okay we allowed music parks great so now we have these casinos and with smoking I it’s it’s not that we are creating and with smoking we allow it and we tax we could tax the heck out of it right because we’re changing the substitution effect for the value of that virtue uh from one good to another and so what you’re saying is oh just because we shouldn’t do it you know just because we allow it means we shouldn’t you know that with that argument of line with that uh that argument of thought we allow smoking it’s not like we’ve banned smoking everywhere within the cut with everywhere than the state we’ve just extremely taxed it and so that that’s the point here so we’re just so if you want to do that let’s allow it let’s tack the bejesus out of it so that way it becomes so incredibly expensive relative to other goods that now people don’t want to do it that’s the substitution effect in what we were trying to get at the state is in a conflict of interest because if the state tries to minimize something that undercuts the whole reason it got into it in the first place the state’s looking for the money so my friend said oh you can have bet limits like they do in Missouri the reason that overwhelming most states don’t do anything like that is because if you place bed limits it reduces the income that goes to the state the state sent a conflict of interest on the one hand it’s public health regulator and on the other hand it wants the money hmm what are we gonna do promote the public health or get the money get the money or promote the public health classic conflict of interest which the government should not be in the position of doing that the same situation happens in cigarettes and we don’t disallow cigarettes the same situation happens with alcohol we don’t disallow alcohol so what you’re saying is we can only do it for the casinos because our mageddon is gonna take place but we won’t do it for alcohol at everything we can let that go that’s okay everybody can smoke and everybody can drink and everybody can do everything else they want to do it’s a product the state’s gonna tax that product enormous Lee because they are gonna get revenue out of it and that’s what they do that’s how they get their revenue gas cigarettes Pizza cars whatever they do and that’s just fine by me and if they want to tax it at a certain rate let’s say the rates 37% of all slots that are gonna be taxed in New York if those are the rules of engagement coming in then it’s up to the private sector the marketplace the commercial entity to decide in its business plan whether that number works for them or not and if it works so be it you wouldn’t leave ones that you really want lots more New Yorkers to smoke cigarettes so thank you and this one here is going to ask and I would ask you to all to be brief because we also have to have our closing remarks so we’re bumping up against this so a quick question quick answer and we’ll go to closing remarks okay it seems it seems that I hear two things out of the pro side like in a response to the white elephant question it’s more oh that’s not going to happen here this is gonna really work we’re gonna bring in all this money but then it’s oh it’s no big deal we’re just adding one thing and that seems to be a logical disconnect to me so our Constitution is an important thing I think it’s very important it was it was constructed for a certain reason and we’ve made an exception now for lottery we’ve made an exception for off-track betting for these games that are playing in bars can’t remember the name right now every five minutes you know if we keep saying we’re quickdraw that’s it and then it’s racinos and it just keeps getting bigger every time it’s we just need this one more thing we just need this one more thing so the question is why should we believe it now it seems like it’s it’s been so many times and it always needs more it never stops that’s directed to the affirmative and a quick response and then we’ll move to closing arguments what it is that you want to believe this is a a thing not the thing for upstate New York this is an opportunity is not the opportunity this is private dollars invested it invested in at risk and just like a lot of projects that are privately invested some work some don’t I don’t know why that is the idea that if someone builds something you may not be successful is the reason not to not to to build things but that to me that sort of that’s that’s not really the point here the do to us the point is that again by a quirk of an old law certain things are allowed and certain things aren’t we’re saying we’re eliminating their quirk and if people are ready willing and able to invest private dollars in these facilities that they can well move on to closing statements now we’ll start with the affirmative you have two minutes for your closing studies and then the negative will have the last word so thank you for having us here obviously I was a little impassioned about my comments and about this particular vote because of the effects that I think it’s going to have on my community Sullivan County which has been devastated by job loss for many many years we know from a whole host of different studies the pinnacle group and others that have done market studies in our area that have determined that these numbers are accurate and our air and that’s why we have that interest in Sullivan County we wouldn’t have the interest of the corporate entities that wanted to come here if they didn’t think they were going to be successful in that particular area so that answers that question and to me again I’m a product of that industry I’m a product of tourism my parents came here with no education sixth grade education and worked in these hotels and these tourists and I tell you they’re proud as heck to have me stand here in this university and speak to you people and six kids and they in their wildest dreams wouldn’t think that I’d be the president of a Economic Development Corporation and that I’m here with dressing this on on their behalf and then the rest of the people in Sullivan County and to that end I think tourism works I think the casino was she was going to work and for me I’m gonna vote YES for prop 1 on November 5th thank you there isn’t a single independent study that shows that casinos contribute to economic growth of course the interested actors will tell you that they believe it’s going to be a miracle cure and it’s going to create a lot of jobs but there is no study of an independent nature that shows this if there was such a study we would have learned about it there is no rebuttal to the fact that 35 to 55 percent of the money and from casinos comes from people with serious problems and is it ethical to take our money to pay for our government from this group of people if there were a rebuttal to the 35 to 55 percent number we would have heard it there is no rebuttal this is a standing fact out there on the wall that says you look at it on your way out it says it’s one of the oldest political oaths its oath to the Athenian city-state and it says that you pledge to leave the city more beautiful than you found it it’s it’s lovely I pledge to leave the city more beautiful than you found it does anybody really think this is beautiful what we’re talking about tonight creating these swirling things with the machines that just take your money and cause a lot of problems in people’s lives so that the government get the money does anybody think it’s beautiful okay I want to thank the panelists for I think a very substantive and highly spirited debate thanks well I’m not done yet guys but I’m glad you’re shaking hands well I gotta tell I got it I got a few things to say about that it’s more complicated than you might think what I wanted to ask the aunt and I also want to thank you folks for asking great questions and making great comments so so first of all before I say my final couple pieces I think we should give them and ourselves a round of applause [Applause] now as David just reminded you you’re going to vote now that you’ve heard the debate by walking out of one of two doors it’s in the tradition of other Oxford style debates and parliamentary bodies around the world so again to remind you the affirmative door is to your right the negative door is to your left and and you’ll be counted as you go out the door by our students that are there I’d like to do this very orderly I think we’ve got a manageable size group to do this one final thing I want to say about the reception we’ve got some nice food and drink outside please join us for that we can continue the conversation out there about casinos or we can figure out something else to argue about so again thanks again appreciate you coming

1 thought on “This Assembly Supports the State Casino Referendum”

  1. Of course the Assembly has…. Common Cause showed that some 40-50 million dollars were spent on lobbying and campaign contributions by the Gambling Industry for both the Repubs and Dems…. Money talks louder than concern for the health and welfare of our families……. My advice to those in Albany with this Gambling Fever: "First, Do No Harm!"

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