TOP 10 SHADY Mike Postle Hands

before we even play Nesta everybody said
this guy was the sickest ever ha after
this and I might be somebody else I I
don’t know how this could be justified
just like a pure DJ and gambler or
there was a raise no the wolf didn’t go
all-in for six thousand that looks like
a raise to 100 and something 115 don’t
know the graphics fool you 110 ace high
flop two diamonds
Harlen flops a flush draw nothing but
overs for everyone else deal with Mike
pasa less than 1% which is where he
likes to start to throw chips in I mean
you’re gonna pick Hanzel Bluff with it
you want we want to blow for their bad
hands right so our one percenters you do
remember him three betting and adding
the four bet with seven deuce off right
in my game I love Mike pasal Mike fossil
plays post flop better than anyone else
I’m telling you he’s going for it that’s
260 gets called from Harlan and eight
high versus eight hi ladies and
gentlemen to split pot like 1% on the
way to chop there’s $1,000 pot with two
eight highs versus each other ladies and
lock the doors Harlan pitches in the
muck if you’re a poker player get in
your car and get it down to stones
everybody’s on the 30-minute delay
except for postle
he gets the cards at at the same time I
think he just he just sees everything he
has different eyesight than we do so
here Dave is opening up with the King 10
and Frank of course is coming along with
those burl pretty looking suited
connectors Mike’s hand is not pretty
looking when he’s coming along anyway he
finds a deuce
whoa Mike Mike flops the best hand this
is actually a pretty sick can that’s a I
always at the table in Washington so oh
well something’s gonna happen here
spoiler we’ll see so it looks like Dave
as the preflop raiser is continuation
betting Mike is behind him on the button
so he is gonna call cuz he has flopped a
pair and he’s Mike and Frank is raising
Frank is just reciting like hey now’s my
time I’m going for it and he spent a
great time go for he does that’s a son
or daughter raised over the 55 dollar
bet those are white chips is bet 55
raised to 700 the franken tank we know
and love supposed to say now he’s like
why so much I mean obviously oh my call
with the deuce here but at the same time
he’s like I feel like this is that these
guys are so much to each other that
buying it but it’s so tough and what
sick about Mike too is like it would be
obviously absurd if he finds a call here
but if he does like I feel like once in
a blue moon I’m like you know what I
think choose the best hand call and then
like did the 8 just comes on the turn
and I’m like but Michael never never his
opponent will never hit the turn if you
if Mike finds our call here never never
ever there’s no 8 and 9s left in the
deck so this is where I mean it really
just becomes much so it might just went
all in and this is where just player
dependent my god and like I said don’t
try this oh I mean it it has to be it
has to just be that this plate so much
that he knows that Frank Frank wouldn’t
play any strong hand this way right he
would try to get value from a strong
hand again Mike’s instincts are just my
eye can see his opponents cards right
now he just can see their cards yeah
with blinds at 5 5 10 the cut off opens
to 50 dollars
Mike postle is in the small-block
with the Tendo suited so of course any
crusher in these games is gonna flat
call here Harlan is in the ten dollar
blind and he decides to put in the three
bet two hundred and thirty five dollars
to go cut off makes the call and easy
decision for the ten deuce to fold oh
wait a minute
nope nope hold on a second he does put
in the call a great spot to be three
ways with ten dudes out of position
against some relatively short stacks
Mike Mike finds a deuce here on this
board and he has a backdoor flush draw
to go with it he has out flopped his
opponents who have real real hands this
is textbook Mike and John Oh to your
point here’s a little maniac play by
Mike Mike can be a little bit of a poker
maniac as you can see with his ten deuce
coming along and I’ll flop in people and
he won’t be going anywhere Mike flops
pairs and draws and floats and all sorts
of stuff so we’ll see what he does in
this pot Harlan is going to make a
continuation bet he’s got back to our
hearts ace high this looks to be a board
everybody has missed which is half true
AC missed it
let’s see but live at the bike because
it plays bigger and Wilder attracts an
audience that wants to see big spots
people get felt in and maniac play oh
stones reflects more III do kind of
agree with this we’re putting people on
our stream that play in our card room
obviously occasionally that sprinkled
with guys like Jamin Johnny vibes comes
you know Chris Moneymaker
Daniel Negreanu was playing the weekend
that we did the Poker Stars Platinum
pass but for the most part I would say
90% of the players that play here and
now Chris has been here so many times it
he might as well be a part of the gang
right yeah I mean that’s not a bad thing
and sup and here’s what stones is like
AC finds a raise here so Mike with the
best hand and awesome it is also I mean
Harlan leads here with nothing
well AC ace I guess he shoves Wow okay
boom right on cue Jono what do you think
about that playing like face up like
face up it’s right totally absolutely
it’s like how does Mike
here hey all AC is thinking is well AC
is a if there is a wild person to the
table that that it’s potential to get a
little bit more wild than Mike it’s
probably AC to be on wow and they see us
to fold what a great great spot like how
does he find a shove there god bet Ray’s
show really hard to play against a guy
who knows what you have all the time and
just always seems to find the perfect
move 110 with the jack 9 offer from mr.
Michael apostle to a flop ladies and
gentlemen spades are covered let’s hope
it’s all spades seven six three one
spade and the wolf flops top pair this
is what happens you play seven four off
you flop top pair like Robert Zane here
to work as a check raise if you can get
it in now here’s the word that hey I say
that but I mean these are the times the
board that misses our opponents range
and we flop you know a gutter over the
backdoor flush draw it’s a good
candidate to take a check raise with the
problem is in this game that board isn’t
miss our opponents that often yeah
smacks the hell out of these guys are
just playing all these five six five
seven seven eight eight five I mean this
is a type of game I think you have to be
really skilled post-flop because people
are not going to let go of their cards
very easily eight on the turn holding on
to his equity in this hand any checks
now checked around Paul also improves to
open-ended hustles like you know what
you all want to check to me again I’ll
make it harder for you to multiple
opponents that all peeled us on 763 if a
ten comes here’s the nuts good read
thanks I’m just saying he might think
that someone else has like a five here
and maybe like said I’m just playing
passive this bought multi way on this
board when that card comes off I related
to check back and just really as my
equity but I feel like that hands is hey
it’s so many people that that some of
the hands that are gonna check call us
in seven six three did you guys really
aren’t I just like check calling like
two overs and no one’s like checking on
King Queen there
right that board is gonna that card is
gonna help them as well even though it
did help us that’s far I think I like to
just like check back and and realize all
back all our equity so Wolf’s got the
best of it it’s Mikan find a way to win
this hand oh my were the twenty one
hundred dollar bet from Mike and he’s
putting Wolfe to the test here e2k the
wolf is actually considering this
this is gonna be so sick if he calls
he’s gonna be my new hero the wolf and
if he doesn’t call Mike’s Jesus Mike ran
away can we change his name to Jesus
it’s so easy mark actually flicks in the
call with Ace King off suit from the
last blind he’s good so Adam you know
this is a situation where like he’s not
gonna be 3betting breath like often so
mixing in a call here sometimes with
this hand like you’re incentivized to
mostly be calling from the big blind so
flicking in a call with like this kind
of a hand sometimes to like protect your
range is like a good thing sometimes
it’s okay
it’s definitely fine it’s more like a oh
for sure slams yes I’m done three bit
but it also allows him to do this right
so like now he’s floating you know with
what he perceives to be the best hand
and I expect him to call again if
another bet comes in here wide preflop
but yes surprise he’s not checking here
I don’t know I guess this is to know I
don’t know what the right play would be
for ten eight here
yeah I mean you mostly want it’s nice to
have to overs to the nine when you fire
because you could suck out on the nine
so you know it’s probably one of those
situations where it’s just like a mix
spot but like there’s a heavily range
advantageous board for you so like
firing with ten eight can be like
detrimental like you have a lot of hands
that fold to turn like you know Queen
Jack of Clubs that just fold so like
getting those hands to fold the Knights
and now I’m this brick run out
Possible’s asking himself can I get a
nine to fold can I get a high to fold my
punished has been check calling all the
way down he’s definitely swinging for it
yeah this is probably gonna work because
Adam can’t necessarily think that pasal
is firing ace high so it’s not like he’s
beating any of your hands that dominate
him right he pauses just gonna check ace
cleanings Jack perceivably so it’s more
like is he firing king queen is he
firing king jack if that’s the case and
Adam can definitely call Adams
definitely sick buddy Wow
it’s so easy when you can see the card
yeah so easy somebody might have just
died on the table game side from that
scream raised to 150 here from get there
Mike with ace ten suited so he bets 275
here on this flop you see Anthony now
thinking about it but he’s probably
gonna get away it does have a couple
players behind him Ben however has a
decision to make with his top hair
and his decision is snap call sucka and
dave c can easily find a fold here after
it gets bad and called another seven on
the turn both players thinking i you
know i mean the thing is mike is a guy
who likes to bet rep mid pair but he
also did raise 150 pre so let’s give him
the benefit of the doubt that he doesn’t
have a seven in his hand but any ace
jack or better does dominate been here
and mike is not slowing down he fires
how is this gonna ship my soul Reed is
strong another three on the river here
changes nothing if Ben if Ben if you
think you’re good on the turn you’ve got
to be good on the river right you know I
think yeah and exactly this card didn’t
change anything I mean so Ben should
definitely hold on
but can he because Mike likes to apply
pressure but will Mike shut it down and
realize oh did he just say 5,000 5,000
5,000 I want all the money that’s so
sick and and if you’re been here I mean
I’m Allison that D and if you’re Benny I
mean it’s such a gross Oh Lynette to a
pot of 2.0 K 3 this is sick this is sick
because we can see that it’s a
guaranteed chop but but if you’re Ben
can you really make this call I don’t
think you can I don’t think you if you
call that turn oh god Mike P you are
friggin disgusting and we love you it’s
so easy when you can see the cards yeah
so easy he was just showing me that
canned goods actually have an expiration
date it’s true because apparently I’ve
had canned goods in my friggin pants so
long he’s like how long have you had
this where it expired two years ago
because you must have like 10 years
before that yeah it was yeah you bought
like a like a like a pack of Dinty Moore
beef stew at Costco and you just you
ain’t like one of them and never touch
the rest just cuz i successfully prepped
for y2k doesn’t mean that my shit should
go bad in my we got a straight draw for
for pasal which he can’t possibly ever
miss t-bones bedding with also a
straight draw and a back to our flush
draw and the guy with the real equity
gets out and now on the turn pasal adds
to his straight outs t-bone still with
the best of it but he just has 9 high he
bets and his pasal folding gear no way
see now this is the type of thing where
possible like calls and either gets
there or his opponent doesn’t and he
makes a great bluff or something so
there’s no freaking way he’s folding and
not only is he not folding he’s raising
and this is one of those things where I
know a lot of people would be like well
what hand I’ll be reppin here if we’ve
raised what are we trying to say we’ve
locked the set of threes but I mean you
know you’re right that it doesn’t really
make a lot of sense but people are just
like I don’t know where I’m at and I
don’t really know what to do fold but
t-bone has a two-way straight drawn
calls he bricks off nine high is good
but but obviously you can never escrow
2012 thanks for the follow on Twitter
brother we appreciate it and you’re just
in time to see Mike Jesus pasal make a
terrific bluff and of course I mean it’s
you know $1500 and we end up on the
river with eight high versus nine high
and this will work
oh this is perfect this is this is
textbook stones live here eight high
versus nine high and there’s like
thousands of dollars in the pot and now
guys if t-bones somehow find some
miracle ship it’s never gonna happen
he’s gonna be here the Casey Zeena
echoing through the canyon walls would
be the shot heard round it would be it
would be the shove of the century could
do it I can’t do I could see the cards I
can’t I can’t I fold yeah I still fold
I’m looking at the cars I see no no no
oh my god please for the love of
everything ever please Kenny ever no way
in the world like team fan girl for life
if this happened it’s a value shove he
has the best way know what what all the
graphics are wrong the graphics are does
he have eight nine Taylor does he have
eight nine don’t even tell me the
graphics are wrong I’m so much happier
if the graphics are right here he says
mike has it Mike has six nine no ways
would it help what do they have tell me
they have the same hands but they just
reversed it’s still cool anybody Bueller
Mike Mike has what Mike has Mike even
where the graphics are wrong Mike still
so t-bones hand is correct he’s bluffing
here this is just a fantastic bluff by
t-bone yeah I hear that my guys and I
but I love this I can’t eat six just
give t-bone the money I want Tebow and
Mike is like what do I do with the nuts
big puzzles the Chuck Norris of Poker
amen brother
I’m not even a religious man but we’re
gonna just drop a solid amen to that I
am a religious man and amen isn’t there
a better Jewish term for that though
what then
this is so sad oh they’re the grotto my
god oh my god Mike flops eight nine of
Spades good god man also blocks the
graphics what can you say I mean the guy
is can see his opponents cards right now
and the Caribbeans at in the beginning
of the year but one of our our stream
friends Vanessa Cade is in the running
for six king board here we’re three-way
to a flop Mike pee out flops everyone
behind the six he does check he was in
the small blind so first to act here
he’s playing this pot out of position
against Bryan and yeah huh putt that 190
Bryan is gonna take the lead that’s out
75 I can see y’all have getting away
here now Mike P needs is gonna he
decided to continue here with the six
now yeah the ACE is a great card for
Bryan to continue his story on and just
in general I think it’s obviously this
is not true for all the time but if you
start telling the story it’s really
important that you continue to tell that
story for a little while at least until
you really you know you don’t want to
just always be instantly one barrel give
up you know you Bluff on one room like
the flop and then immediately give up on
the turn this was just a great card for
Bryan to continue especially when you
actually turn equity to help improve
your hand for sure
ace here on the river definitely helps
Bryan to possibly feel like he with
likely Mike doesn’t have an ace here
Mike also was in the blind so his range
is super wide he could have so many
hands now if Mike P checks this if Brian
can find the triple barrel here if he
can bet one more time it will work I
believe against my P but Mike’s not
gonna let that happen he wants to take
the lead he’s gonna bet out here oh is
this value or is this a bluff this is
I’m curious does he think he has the
best hand he bets out 250 into a pot
that was what like six it’s like six is
70 something like that 680 I think it’s
actually a bluff it’s gonna it I think
it’s a bluff targeting like tens Jack’s
in that range
Oh is Brandon or considered you’re just
gonna fold Oh Brian I love you so
freakin much right now races it’s about
900 and loving this is a sec Siri raised
by Brian in my opinion and just feeling
like you know it’s more than 700 likely
putting Mike on something very close to
what he has
a six or even possibly a king that that
mic was allowing Bryan to bluff at and
then Bryan selling the story yeah maybe
I was but I turned in ace and now I have
trips and what are you gonna do about it
and it’s incredibly sexy and it should
work now if anyone could like pick this
off it would be Mike P and it’d be his
magical wizard powers but this should
work almost all the time against almost
every opponent and I kind of expect – I
expect to see it to work here – its 450
to call but Mike’s not folding quickly
and he’s suspicious because his
instincts are super sound sorry I’m not
supposed to bang on the table sorry
obviously Bryan has to fold a hundred
percent he can’t call here but what the
hell might be what the frickin hell so
yeah it’s so easy when you can see the
cars yeah so easy race to 60 here by
paulsen with ace deuce and Veronica with
the good old mr. hands gonna three-bed
up to 300 dollah and now head duck with
tens and position she makes the call and
a snap call by Scott with seven nine
suited I love it I think he might own a
string of like teriyaki shops and
eateries if he’s the guy Postle
telling me about the other night I’m
almost positive it is that’s awesome
Queen Queen four feels down here on
board and Wow not a whole lot going on
for any of the other opponents in this
hand except for head ducks tens are good
they’re kind of stayed away from each
other tonight I’ve noticed so it does go
check all the way around five on the
turn and this is great because head duck
was basically checking in her position
just to make sure nobody was looking at
check-raise with a queen and now she can
very comfortably I think just flat call
here and continue in this hand I feel
pretty good about it the turn does
potentially bring a flush draw
on board we can
see nobody has it but in this case I
think Scott’s bet should find folds from
pasal however he also has a wheel draw
now so you never know old so I would
imagine Veronica I’m sorry there we go
back at puzzle action tracker a little
hammered route casual 430 dollar drawing
dad bet standard and I knew it I knew
some how some way possible is gonna find
some sick raise here and he sure does he
reaches down into the depths of his soul
while reading the souls of everybody
else and just goes for it that’s 1.2 and
this is very this is the same way you
would play a queen right check the flop
raise the turn and so I don’t envy head
duck’s position here I would not be
surprised to see her find a fold here
all day I think so yeah 16th it is that
sounds good and of course she’s gonna
find a fold and Scott will as well and
this is interesting this is like the
second time I think possums done this
weird hefty raise it says keep watch oh
we’re gonna go to Table Talk just in
case things get weird
it’s so easy when you can see the cards
yeah so easy
so technically rich out in front here
but possible with a wheel draw but after
rich 3bet spree Impossibles kind of in
whiffed city he knows it’s gonna get
real expensive we continue here
especially since I don’t think rich is
gonna slow it down you got to assume
that rich is gonna keep on the gas pedal
right and this is gonna be a hard a hard
board for most people to hit anything in
normal three bet pots now obviously you
got to know your opponent it is possible
he’s gonna be Wyatt you know a little
bit wider he knows this about it also so
which makes your betting seem a little
wider look at that said I I don’t know
if he’s gonna slow down I mean he might
he also doesn’t want to fall into the
I’m just gonna keep yeah see and that’s
the problem is cuz pasal has a range of
any two cards you also don’t want to
fall into that trap of just three
barreling an apostle while he’s just got
you murdered in this particular case
that’s not what’s going on but again
pasal knows this man apostle will float
all day now just to see what you do on
the turn and when you start slowing down
he’s never going to not apply pressure
you know what I mean
so basically basically Bianca of Poker
the masseuse of Poker is always applying
pressure here’s the secret to playing
against Postle how it don’t have it but
seriously is really consider your range
and like you know versus the actual
board so like how would you play aces in
this spot right now would you continue
to bet on this turn most likely so you
should bet if you if you decide to bet
the flop then you should decide to bet
the turn especially someone again like
Postle you who you know is going to call
you super wide on the flop
Wow and he check raises huge I love
novice this is so strong how is this
ever a bluff from rich this should work
if possible somehow find some sick click
back ship I’m just gonna puke a little
bit oh yeah I mean I’ll clean it up but
seriously I’ve just said this should
work 100% of the time I mean even with
pasal and his mother effin soul reads
well I should still yeah and I
why is pasal reaching for chips oh my
god what did he do he did not know he
called he just called what this is this
is sick so how do we have $2,500 pot
with two ace highs here guys and and
this should we would think either go
shit for it or it’s gonna go check ship
I love everything about this and rich
firing what what one thousand into 2500
this is so sick man that’s good this guy
might be my favorite player I love this
guy rich I think the second time we’ve
seen him
yeah can we give him the VIP Platinum
pass to come back every stream cuz this
is amazing and pasal in the tank I mean
I think other than like a posture fold I
don’t really know we’re thinking about
here but then again it’s possible I’ve
been surprised before so how much does
just rich have left oh my god oh my
we’re gonna table

100 thoughts on “TOP 10 SHADY Mike Postle Hands”

  1. 14:03 when the graphic on the stream is wrong. Looks like he checks the stream, checks his cards, checks the stream again.

  2. but wheres the hidden info or phone view on th 6-2 hand hes tight to the table ,is it the ear tuning fork hat idea because hes not doing the crotch of infinite wisdom move 🤷‍♂️

  3. If phone use is acceptable at the tables why didn't use his phone more openly whilst cheating? He could have been far less obvious. Better still, maybe phones should be bsnned from all tables…

  4. I'm getting ill just watching this. Anything shady? He's either cheating or He's the Creator of the universe! At 25:20 no human being raises this bluff by Scott no matter what his hole cards are. The other pots he took down on folds are just as sickening. I hope he goes to jail for ten years.

  5. 3:53 proves it to me that he 100% has info of the other guys cards…the acting was HORRIBLE…the "WHY SO MUCH?!………..WHY SO MUCH MAN?!….WHY SO MUCH…….2 seconds later….all in" yeahhhhhhhhhhh no, that right there was the biggest red flag i've ever seen, at least tank for a few minutes and act like you're making a move, he completely gave it away RIGHT THERE (in my mind)

  6. Commentator: "everybody sees the cards on a 30 minute delay but Postle, he gets the cards at-at the same time"
    Me: 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

  7. Ok, the cutoff opens and I have 10-2 suited, guess I'll call. Oh the button puts in a massive 4bet and I'm out of position, hell yeah ill call. Wait, the agressor led out $175 and the cutoff is putting me all in? Time to rip it in with a pair of deuces and a weak kicker and no redraws!

  8. Why doesn't someone set up a long game in controlled circumstances with top players and see if he can replicate that skill level. If I was innocent I would play in it. He would just play stupid crazy and when he lost claim sometimes it doesn't work. He is a cheat no doubt about it.

  9. Some of these only required someone with nuts to say prove your bullshit. So odd how many times when you watch him he just gets people who are too scared to make a power move. If I knew any better stones are chiisung these people on purpose since Mike can get away with murder

  10. Thanks you! As someone who has watched 5+ hours of this fool cheating I feel like this will be my last Postle video. Not because I know now he is a cheater(I knew that from the 12 min mark) but because of the feeling I felt when '2 rich' called. That could be my all time favourite poker moment.

  11. Disgusting to think about how many people Mike literally STOLE money from. Put him in a cage for the rest of his life, misserable human-being.

  12. To all the mouth breathers in this comment section saying he is legit: how about the hand where his opponent doesn't scan his cards properly, and mike turns to the guy and says "you need to scan your cards". Why the fuck would he know to say that, or even care??

  13. The lawyer moves in to check if he is cheating. How did it take them so long? All they had to do was grab his chair and look at phone.

  14. Professional poker players are are NARCISSISTIC, FUCKIN BABIES, IMMATURE, CONDESCENDING, SPOILED ASS HOLES!!!! PERIOD!!!! They can't stand someone being better than them.

  15. We all have been ran down with rags, we have been snapped by a calling station left wondering how the fuck did he know? So does anybody actually know where the hell is this fucking guy is and his cohorts. Has anyone took a baseball bat to him yet? I seen enough of these fucking videos. The next thing I want to hear is that somebody got him. No more views no more thumbs up. Nada! capiche?

  16. How can the hands themselves be evidence? I've seen some pretty sick hands from Tom Dwan and he also plays ATC (any two cards) poker.

  17. I luv that last hand , even though postle is clearly cheating , he still managed to lose the hand …lol…but he still makes my fukkin blood boil ….

  18. Why cant they force him to play no hat or phone at the table. Make all the players at the table play no hat or phone at the table and see how he does? It feels like they qant all this controversy and attention. Poker needs the drama.

  19. Well start having no hat rules, he'll start playing shirtless while at it… no way they should have their phones in lap maybe he is just playing lights out poker against scrubs? I know it's hard but no one can say shit if no hats or shirts he'll have an outfit ready for each player like a uniform with out Poker's similar to jail. Cheat in jail get cut the fuck uo

  20. I do believe he cheated but a lot of these examples aren't anywhere near proof of it. Example the hand where he flops an open ended straight flush draw and ends up with the nuts on the river. How is that anywhere near suspect? Several other hands where he bets into people who have nothing while he's holding a pair or a draw. It's not anything different than standard play. Some spots are blatently obvious but a lot or most of these aren't really all that bad.

  21. Holy WOW who is RICH? At the end??? (29:00) That is one HELLUVA CALL SON!!! Watched it 3 times already. PLEASE give him VIP pass every stream. Whatever the hell that is. Wow.
    I got a new hero, which way is this shitty casino? Sacto or some place? I''l find it.

  22. The baffling thing is. If jou cheat dont do it with these hands. You ll get exposure…… look at your dick when you have a real hand and a real descision. Even the all time goats like Dwan, Ivey, hellmuth etc would not be able to do this. Sucking at poker is one thing but MP sucks even at cheating…….. what an idiot

  23. It's funny to me these dudes acting like they're experts and the chick in the booth has better logic and was the main one calling his ass out

  24. If this greedy pig actually lost on purpose and played like a normal human being he could have been set and made plenty to live with but of course like most cheating bastards they get greedy.

  25. Anyone who doesn’t think he’s cheating, it’s not any one hand that seals it. Plenty of poker pros have made similar plays. It’s the fact that he won 34 out of 36 sessions. That does not happen, period.

    Anyone who has played poker can tell you that. I’ve run hot, so have others, but you don’t win 34 out of 36. Ever.

  26. Are the commentators contractually resteicted from calling him out or what, obviously quite a few of them know what's up. I doubt his insider is very high up at Stones but surely they will cop some shit for letting this nonsense go on for so long, it's so blatant.

  27. People say he's looking at his phone. WHY are phones even allowed at the table? Every casino I've ever played at.. this is a big no-no.

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